In which Asher and I discuss "The Dark Knight", "Watchmen" and the MPAA."

WARNING: The following contains spoilers for "The Dark Knight." It also probably doesn't make any sense unless you've seen "The Dark Knight," "300," read "The Dark Knight," and "Watchmen."

The background to this convo is that I insulted TDK in my facebook status (the mature outlet for all aggression) and was roundly insulted. Asher responded: "no wall posts since july 6th.
insult the dark knight and within 10 minutes, 3 posts about how youre wrong."

Me (4:53:28 PM): In my defense I didn't insult it

Me (4:53:35 PM): I just refused to get on the bandwagon

Asher (4:53:50 PM): but the wagon is so soft and welcoming

Asher (4:53:51 PM): join us

Asher (4:54:13 PM): and I also think its unfair to compare the Nolan movies to the Burton movies

Asher (4:54:24 PM): cause they’re not trying to do the same things

Me (4:54:17 PM): I mean, agreed

Me (4:54:23 PM): they’re completely different

Asher (4:54:32 PM): yeah

Me (4:55:46 PM): I guess my thing is that frank millers "the dark knight returns" is much better than Chris Nolan’s "the dark knight" and they both bring up the same issues. what does vigilante power do to a man? what happens to civil rights? etc. which Nolan flirts with but ultimately does nothing with

Me (4:55:58 PM): though I had a jolly good time and was engrossed the entire time

Me (4:56:06 PM): and the joker was terrifying

Asher (4:56:16 PM): I think Nolan did a pretty good job bringing up the issues

Asher (4:56:28 PM): cause I think, and I need to see it again, but I think he wanted to raise the issue

Asher (4:56:30 PM): not answer it

Me (4:56:32 PM): he touched on them

Me (4:56:47 PM): but the whole spying thing was like oh well we'll destroy it and it will all be okay

Me (4:56:55 PM): same with the torture issue

Asher (4:57:08 PM): right

Me (4:57:09 PM): have you read millers dark night

Me (4:57:12 PM): ?

Asher (4:57:16 PM): I haven’t

Asher (4:57:19 PM): I bought it

Asher (4:57:34 PM): I bought it before but I didn’t know if I wanted to read it first and then see it

Asher (4:57:42 PM): somehow I decided to convince myself to see it first then read it

Me (4:59:06 PM): okay, I mean they’re completely different stories

Me (4:59:24 PM): but miller completely revolutionized the batman comic

Me (4:59:38 PM): essentially laid the ground work for Nolan’s movies

Asher (4:59:53 PM): hm, yeah that makes sense

Me (5:00:05 PM): so know that going in

Asher (5:00:29 PM): yeah, millers always darker

Me (5:01:12 PM): I guess I feel like yeah it was a pretty awesome movie, but I’m resentful of all the praise its getting because what everyone is praising it for has been done with more violence and more darkness and better in comics like watchmen and dark knight returns and I guess someone’s got to start the backlash and it might as well be me

Me (5:01:37 PM): the ideas it raises while new to super hero movies are not new to super heroes

Asher (5:01:57 PM): no you’re right

Me (5:02:15 PM): and its frustrating that this is considered so revolutionary when this was being done 20 25 years ago by Frank Miller and Alan Moore

Asher (5:02:07 PM): but for mainstream movies, its all new

Asher (5:02:57 PM): I mean, think about this vs. superman or Spiderman or xmen

Me (5:02:21 PM): this is true

Me (5:02:28 PM): and it was pretty damn kick ass

Asher (5:02:41 PM): yeah

Me (5:02:48 PM): "how about a magic trick, I’m going to make this pencil disappear"

Asher (5:02:59 PM): oh my god

Me (5:03:07 PM): exactly

Asher (5:03:12 PM): the entire packed theater - "OH GOD"

Me (5:03:23 PM): we'll see how watchmen does with these same issues next year

Asher (5:03:32 PM): yeah it’ll be really interesting

Asher (5:03:40 PM): to see how audiences take to that after dark knight

Me (5:03:51 PM): the groundwork is there for it to surpass this, but I also don’t trust the director one bit

Asher (5:04:01 PM): agreed

Me (5:04:24 PM): I mean the source material is great, the cast is fantastic, the visuals look awesome

Me (5:04:28 PM): lets hope it doesn’t suck

Asher (5:04:40 PM): I hope so

Asher (5:05:15 PM): I think the script will be interesting

Me (5:05:17 PM): yeah

Me (5:05:21 PM): its such a huge book

Asher (5:05:24 PM): and if Snyder can control his urges to make it too 300y

Asher (5:05:27 PM): yeah

Me (5:05:26 PM): yeah

Me (5:05:27 PM): seriously

Me (5:06:03 PM): I mean he’s def drawing on the visual style of the book which is exactly what he did with 300, and the story of watchmen is just more interesting than 300 to begin with

Asher (5:06:12 PM): yeah it is

Me (5:06:13 PM): and fun as it was 300 is completely ridiculous

Asher (5:06:19 PM): I think for the 300 he did a fine job

Me (5:06:21 PM): exactly

Me (5:06:24 PM): for what it is

Me (5:06:26 PM): I had fun

Asher (5:06:27 PM): for all that’s in the 300, he tapped it dry

Asher (5:06:28 PM): yeah

Me (5:06:38 PM): but watchmen is so much more

Asher (5:06:49 PM): yeah

Me (5:06:53 PM): it is one of the most revolutionary comics of all time

Me (5:06:56 PM): so we'll see

Me (5:07:00 PM): nothing to do but wait and see

Asher (5:07:10 PM): yeah, when is it? march?

Me (5:07:39 PM): something like that

Me (5:11:31 PM): back to dark knight I approve of the flipping of trucks

Asher (5:11:51 PM): in tdk?

Me (5:12:10 PM): yes sir

Asher (5:12:17 PM): oh man

Asher (5:12:30 PM): that whole sequence I thought was genius

Asher (5:12:32 PM): with no music

Me (5:14:35 PM): oh god

Me (5:14:40 PM): completely terrifying

Me (5:14:51 PM): and knowing what was going to happen to dent made it all the more tense

Asher (5:15:00 PM): oh man

Me (5:15:00 PM): I was like "is this the moment? this? no this"

Asher (5:15:08 PM): I know!

Me (5:15:24 PM): also, the blowing up of the hospital

Me (5:15:26 PM): hilarious

Asher (5:15:37 PM): it was so awesome

Me (5:16:30 PM): I mean every scene with the joker

Me (5:16:35 PM): awesome

Asher (5:16:55 PM): so so so creepy

Me (5:17:14 PM): seriously

Me (5:17:21 PM): the make-up team out did themselves

Asher (5:17:38 PM): my brother said one of his friends had to leave because she was so scared

Me (5:17:45 PM): I could see that

Asher (5:17:44 PM): yeah, no cgi

Me (5:18:03 PM): they must have done cgi on two face

Asher (5:18:26 PM): oh, yeah 2 face was

Asher (5:17:59 PM): I still am amazed it was pg13

Asher (5:18:16 PM): I hate the mpaa and this is such a clear reason why

Me (5:18:21 PM): they should have rated it r

Asher (5:18:41 PM): like, I watch horror movies that are R and not as scary or gory or violent

Asher (5:18:55 PM): but I’m pretty sure you never see anyone die in DK

Me (5:19:17 PM): no its just implied, but implied in a scary scary way

Asher (5:19:41 PM): yeah

Me (5:19:39 PM): the moment when the hung batguy bangs against the commissioners window

Asher (5:19:48 PM): oh man

Me (5:19:47 PM): I screamed a little

Asher (5:19:57 PM): I think I did too

Me (5:20:07 PM): cause other times I was braced

Me (5:20:16 PM): that time, not so much

Asher (5:20:54 PM): yeah not really

Me (5:21:21 PM): I wish there had been more scarecrow

Me (5:21:36 PM): I love cillian Murphy

Me (5:21:41 PM): with all my heart

Asher (5:21:47 PM): I agree

Asher (5:21:54 PM): I think that was a little flaw

Asher (5:22:08 PM): unless its followed up a lot in a 3rd movie

Asher (5:26:25 PM): but yeah I wish we just saw cillian one more time instead of just assuming he’s in jail

Me (5:27:02 PM): yeah

Me (5:27:12 PM): I feel like he and the joker would have been friends

Asher (5:27:27 PM): yeah

Me (5:27:34 PM): though I fully recognize there was probably casting issues and he had to work on a different movie blah blah blah

Me (5:27:35 PM): but still

Me (5:27:45 PM): it was weird to throw him in there just at the beginning

Asher (5:27:53 PM): yeah

Asher (5:28:03 PM): he’s gotta finish off somehow

Me (5:28:29 PM): I hope

Me (5:28:41 PM): I’m def curious to see if they do a number three

Me (5:28:47 PM): and if so what villain they use

Asher (5:29:38 PM): agreed

Asher (5:29:51 PM): I’ve been looking around the boards and such and everyone has a theory

Asher (5:30:01 PM): but I asked joblo and he told me no talk of a 3rd yet

Asher (5:30:53 PM): it’ll be really interesting

Me (5:31:12 PM): yeah nothing on imdb

Me (5:31:22 PM): I don’t believe any rumor until its on imdb

Asher (5:31:27 PM): if Nolan does a 3rd, if they have joker again and recast, if they just say "oh yeah the jokers in jail and we cant see him ever again..."

Me (5:31:39 PM): they’re not going to recast the joker

Me (5:31:48 PM): like, that would be the stupidest move ever

Asher (5:31:56 PM): I would agree

Me (5:32:06 PM): even before the movie opened it was an iconic performance

Me (5:33:09 PM): they would have to do something like "oh he’s in jail, or he was killed" or whatever but almost everything would be a let down

Asher (5:33:17 PM): but then its just an issue of how you deal with the fact that he was just left hanging

Me (5:33:21 PM): yeah

Me (5:33:24 PM): literally

Asher (5:33:30 PM): yeah

Asher (5:33:36 PM): so it’ll be interesting

Asher (5:33:51 PM): also what comic they would use, or villain

Me (5:34:05 PM): yeah

Asher (5:34:11 PM): I read somewhere that Nolan said he would want to use villains that haven’t been used in other movies yet, after joker

Me (5:34:30 PM): I don’t know batman really like at all but joker is THE MOST iconic of the villains aside from catwoman

Asher (5:34:40 PM): agreed, he is

Me (5:34:45 PM): and I feel like Nolan wouldn’t want to touch catwoman with a ten foot pole

Asher (5:34:55 PM): no not at all

Me (5:34:55 PM): especially after the halle berry disaster

Asher (5:34:59 PM): yeah

Me (5:35:06 PM): I love catwoman as a character but it would just be stupid

Asher (5:35:19 PM): the only real Nolan esque villain is the riddler but he’s very joker esque

Me (5:35:22 PM): yeah

Asher (5:35:28 PM): bane is really dark

Asher (5:35:40 PM): which would be interesting but I don’t think he was that big

Me (5:35:55 PM): yeah

Me (5:36:04 PM): the thing is though batman is just packed with villains

Me (5:36:26 PM): its almost like Nolan could find a story he wanted to tell and then just pick a villain that would work for that story

Asher (5:36:38 PM): this is also true

Me (5:37:13 PM): I’m sad they killed Rachel dawes

Me (5:37:18 PM): I mean, I know it needed to happen

Asher (5:37:21 PM): meh

Asher (5:37:22 PM): yeah

Me (5:37:32 PM): but she was like, the only woman in the entire movie

Me (5:37:39 PM): aside from traitor Ramirez

Asher (5:37:52 PM): who didn’t have any actual lines

Me (5:38:02 PM): she said Bruce a lot

Me (5:38:08 PM): and Harvey

Me (5:38:28 PM): I though Maggie was great personally

Me (5:38:35 PM): at least in her death scene

Asher (5:39:01 PM): I think they wrote it too dumb for her

Asher (5:39:03 PM): cause she’s a real actress

Asher (5:39:10 PM): but it was written for like, Katie Holmes

Me (5:39:19 PM): yeah but she did good stuff with it

Me (5:39:44 PM): I mean it just shows how weak Kate Holmes is

Me (5:39:51 PM): I feel bad

Me (5:39:56 PM): she was just outshone

Asher (5:40:03 PM): don’t feel bad

Asher (5:40:10 PM): how recently have you seen batman begins

Me (5:40:23 PM): parts of it with Clayton this spring

Asher (5:40:41 PM): cause she is so bad in that

Asher (5:40:42 PM): like

Asher (5:40:50 PM): possibly one of the worst performances I’ve ever seen

Me (5:41:00 PM): she’s charming in other things

Me (5:41:17 PM): I just feel bad that her brain has been eaten by zombietomcruse

Asher (5:41:25 PM): no seriously

Asher (5:41:28 PM): like, worst performance ever

Asher (5:41:32 PM): I watched it before DK

Me (5:41:33 PM): brain eaten

Asher (5:41:44 PM): my mom was like, wow she’s a bad actress